08. January 2010

Modification of registration quiz procedure

Dear team captains, this is to inform you that the registration process has been modified slightly compared to earlier announcements on this website. Changes concern the registration quiz. Contrary to what has been indicated...

20. December 2009

Formula Student Germany and Formula Student Electric introduce registration quiz

Category: Competition

Registration for the 2010 FSG and FSE events will be preceded by a registration quiz, testing the teams’ knowledge about the competition rules. This new registration feature is without precedent at any of the other FSAE or...

08. December 2009

EuroMold Workshop

Category: Academy

Last Saturday, an FSG workshop took place at the EuroMold trade-fair in Frankfurt am Main. The workshop dealt with suspension design and set-up. It was the first FSG workshop targeting only one specific aspect of a Formula...

08. December 2009

Formula Student Electric website online

Category: Formula Student Electric

Today, December 8th 2009, the Formula Student Electric (FSE) website has been launched. From now on all news and developments, as well as important documents concerning FSE will be made public through this website. All teams...

03. December 2009

DEKRA remains technical partner in the future

Category: General

DEKRA will continue its commitment as official technical partner of Formula Student Germany (FSG) in the coming years. A corresponding agreement was signed in Stuttgart December 1st 2009. Formula Student Germany is an...

01. December 2009

Formula Student Electric Rules online

Category: Formula Student Electric

The final version of the Formula Student Electric rules are now available under the FSE rules section on this website. Formula Student Electric will be held for the first time in 2010. The FSE rules prescribe safety requirements...

01. December 2009

Essen Motorshow 2009

Category: General

German Formula Student teams of the FH Aachen, RWTH Aachen, FH Deggendorf, FH Dortmund, TU Dortmund, Esslingen, HSU Hamburg, FH Köln, Sankt Augustin, FH Würzburg-Schweinfurt and WH Zwickau present themselves for the first time at...

19. November 2009

Formula Student Germany joins FSAE Series

Category: General

The SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) and the FSG (Formula Student Germany)  jointly announced today that the FSG competition has been signed on as an official member of the FSAE (Formula SAE) series of student...

15. November 2009

Pat's Column - Car set up

Category: Pat´s Corner

Apologies to all for the lack of a column over the last few months. Insane work pressure has kept me away from home for 7 of the last 9 weeks. Last week had me in Adelaide where I witnessed the finish of the Solar Challenge. It...

12. November 2009

FSG 2010 rules and latest draft FSE rules online

Category: Competition

As of now the rules for the 2010 FSG competition are available under the rules section on the FSG website. The rules form the basis of the competition prescribing the specifications for a car in terms of lay-out (open-wheeled...

06. November 2009

FSG & FSE Workshop at Bosch Engineering GmbH, Abstatt

Category: Academy

On Saturday October 31st the annual FSG workshop and the first FSE workshop took place at Bosch Engineering GmbH in Abstatt.  With nearly 300 students from 52 FS teams participating the workshop was  a great success.At...

11. October 2009

Fun Event at the Lausitzring

Category: General

The weekend of October 9 till 11, a fun event at the Lausitzring, Klettwitz, Germany, took place. An event that was especially organized to thank all the volunteers that put so much time, effort and dedication into making Formula...

07. October 2009

All you need to know about suspension design & setup

Category: Academy

On 5th December FS Academy will offer a workshop for FSG participants that focuses on suspension design and the way to the right setup for your car. The workshop will take place in the context of the EuroMold world fair at the...

05. October 2009

FSG & FSE Workshop at Bosch Engineering GmbH, Abstatt

Category: Academy

The yearly FSG workshop offering support and information to Formula Student teams will be held on 31st October 2009 at Bosch Engineering in Abstatt. The workshop is open to all team members. Experienced Formula Student...

02. October 2009

Preparations for Formula Student Germany 2010 are on track

Category: General

Next year’s Formula Student Germany (FSG) will offer participating teams an array of new and exciting challenges as well as an even more professional event. These changes were decided upon by the FSG officials who came...

02. October 2009

New organizational structure of Formula Student Germany

Category: General

In September this year the Formula Student Germany (FSG) board has approved a new FSG organizational structure and decided to strengthen the team by taking on new voluntary members. These changes in structure and human resources...

29. September 2009

International congress "Electronics in vehicles"

Category: General

The 14th international congress of electronics in vehicles takes place on 7th and 8th of October in Baden Baden. Formula Student Electric offers 60 free entries for interested teams. For detailed information please visit...

25. August 2009

First Formula Student Electric event will be held in 2010

Category: Formula Student Electric

In 2010, the first ever Formula Student for electric race cars will take place. The Formula Student Electric (FS Electric) adds a discipline for electric drive train technology to the successful Formula Student Germany (FSG)...

12. August 2009

Sorry TU Fast!

Category: Competition

During the award ceremony the FSG Organisation made a terrible mistake. The award for third place in engineering design was handed over to the team of Perth (University of Western Australia) but belonged to the Team of the...

10. August 2009

University of Stuttgart is the winner of the FSG 2009

Category: Competition

Stuttgart is the winner of the Formula Student Germany 2009. Second and third prize go to the universities of Hatfield and Western Australia. 77 teams and 1900 students from around the world participated in this year’s...

08. August 2009

The autocross

Category: Competition

Yesterday in the early afternoon the Autocross took place which 68 of 77 teams have finished. Here the dynamic skills of the race cars are tested. The teams of Stuttgart U, Corvallis OSU and Delft TU achieved...

08. August 2009

First winning teams at dynamic disciplines

Category: Competition

Today the teams put their cars’ acceleration to the test (64 have finished). Fastest car to make the 75 meter distance was Kiel UAS, only a few hundreths of seconds in front of Ann Arbor U MI and Zürich ETH. To...

08. August 2009

The dynamic events

Category: Competition
Skidpad

After finishing scrutineering and all static events, the first dynamic disciplines are held today. At first there is Acceleration, followed by Skidpad and Autocross. The main race, Endurance, which counts up to 325 points...

06. August 2009

All static events have successfully been completed

Category: Competition

Today, all the static events took place, including the Business Plan Presentations, Cost Event and Engineering Design Event. The 77 teams presented as well as defended their developments of the past year.This year we had a...

06. August 2009

DTM-Driver on the trails of Formula Student

Category: Competition

Bernd Schneider, five-time winner of the DTM (Mercedes), enjoyed his stay at the Formula Student Germany event last year and is now up to another visit to Hockenheim. As a special highlight of the event, all team members are...

06. August 2009

Scrutineering

Category: Competition

Today as well as yesterday afternoon, the scrutineering of the first few cars took place. During the scruniteering process the cars are being checked for meeting the strict regulations of the event. Only after they have been...

06. August 2009

UPDATE Best Suspension Design Award - in memory of Allan Staniforth

Category: Competition

The Judging for the Best Suspension Award will take place on Saturday. The teams will be nominated by the Design Judges based on your Design Reports, Design Spec Sheets and your performance during design Judging on Friday....

05. August 2009

Formula Student Germany takes the fourth round

Category: Competition

From Wednesday, 5th August 2009, til Sunday, 9th August 2009, the fourth Formula Student Germany takes place on Hockenheim-Ring. This year 78 national and international teams are expected. Today all teams will register, move...

29. July 2009

Event Handbook available – new registration process

Category: Competition

The Event Handbook with information for all participating teams is now available as pdf file. Teams are asked to read the handbook carefully in advance. The registration process has been changed for 2009 – please read this...

08. July 2009

Audi Best Lightweight Concept Award

Category: Competition

There are no compromises when it comes to the finest sports car engineering. Technical precision and performance must be pushed to the limits – and beyond. Audi pioneered the use of aluminum in manufacturing car bodies. With...

02. July 2009

BMW Group Award for the Most Innovative Powertrain

Category: Competition

The engine is the heart and soul of every automobile. The BMW Group has demonstrated with their powerful and simultaneously efficient engines that they are industry leaders in this area. Show us that your innovative approach...

10. June 2009

Style Event assesses optical design

Category: Competition

FSG is again offering the additional discipline Style Event. Prof. James Kelly, the Chair of Transportation Design at FH Pforzheim and Roberto Maronde (Daimler AG) will be judging the race cars according to designing...

07. June 2009

FSG Cost Event - Add Item Requests

Category: Competition

Till today over 1200 add item requests have been completed. The committee is working on 350 more add item requests at the moment. Not all of them will be finished till the 12th of June 2009. In case of an unanswered add item...

07. June 2009

Waiting List updated

Category: Competition

The deadline for SEF and IAD has expired on the 1st of May 2009. All registered teams uploaded the requested documents. Only 12 of the 39 teams of the waitung list handed in all documents in time. Due to Rule 1.3 and Rule 1.4 of...

10. May 2009

Allan Staniforth - Obituary

Category: General

Our friend and mentor ‘Stanny’ passed away peacefully on May 2nd after a short illness. He was 85 years of age and still driving competitively in Sprints and Hillclimbs. Allan was a husband, father and grandfather to more than...

06. May 2009

Pat's Column - Space-frame Chassis

Category: Pat´s Corner

I have never made any secret of my preference for space-frame chassis in FSG. This preference is not because of some nostalgic feeling, but for very pragmatic reasons. The thing I like most about a space-frame structure is that...

29. April 2009

Welding at Formula Student – the SLV-Workshop

Category: Academy

The Education and Research Academy for Welding Technology Mannheim Ltd. (SLV) has been responsible for the support of the Formula Student Teams in welding issues since the first Formula Student Germany event at the...

14. April 2009

Pat's Column - Relay Racing

Category: Pat´s Corner

Time for another column as we enter the Student Formula season, and the new Formula One season as the Brawn GP cars will start from the front row in Melbourne later today. It looks like an interesting season. I was invited to...

08. April 2009

FSG Cost Event

10 years ago, new cost rules have been developed. These rules gave the Cost Event a complete new shape and made it to a major part of the competition. In 2008 the Formula SAE® Series and Formula Student Germany decided to...

09. March 2009

Henkel Best Use of Adhesives Award

Category: Competition

Designing and calculating components with traditional materials and joining technologies is the standard in industry. Looking at bonding technologies there are mainly two opinions existing: One statement is: Bonding is widely...

03. February 2009

Steering Committee discusses measures to deal with great demand

Category: General, Competition

In January, 117 teams applied for the 78 starting grids – 39 of them are now on the waiting list. We are aware of the great amount of work and passion these teams have invested in their project and that they also owe a return to...

26. January 2009

Pat's Column - January

Category: Pat´s Corner

Well, 2009 is here and we are in the count-down to FSG in August. As Birgit has already reported, the available registrations filled up within 8 seconds when the registration server and nearly 40 teams were unable to register. ...

19. January 2009

All 78 places for FSG 2009 are booked

Category: Competition

Only 8 seconds (!) after opening regular registration all available places were booked. 38 German and 40 international teams from 19 nations have successfully registered for the 2009 Formula Student Germany Event. Altogether,...

09. January 2009

Top 10 of FS-world ranking published!

Category: General, Competition

Just in time for the early registration of the Formula Student Germany 2009 the FS-World published the Formula Student world ranking. Please see www.fs-world.org. The FS-World managed to deal with 505 different teams having...

07. January 2009

The season 2009 begins - early registration opens on January 9, 2009

Category: General, Competition

The countdown for the 4th Formula Student Germany from 5-9 August 2009 starts now! Early registration will be open from January 9, 2009. Regular registration starts on January 16, 2009. FSG 2009 offers starting grids for 78...

24. December 2008

Pat's Column - December

Category: Pat´s Corner

Well, the 2008 Formula year is finished. Last weekend saw the final event of the year, FSAE-Australasia. Stuttgart dominated FSAE-A finishing with 961 points from an available 1000 to finish a very successful year on a very high...

13. December 2008

Casting, Composites and Rapid Prototyping

Category: Academy

At 6th of December, the second Formula Student Germany workshop of the year took place at the EuroMold World fair in Frankfurt. The workshop aimed on supplying the visitors with specific knowledge in the area of casting,...

10. November 2008

All you need to know about Casting, Composites and Rapid Prototyping

Category: Academy

On 6th December FS Academy will offer a new workshop for FSG participants that focuses on production methods in casting, composites and rapid prototyping. The workshop will take place in the context of the EuroMold world fair...

09. November 2008

354 students attend FSG-Workshop at BMW Group in Munich

Category: Academy

At 8th of November, 354 students from 53 teams from Austria, Germany, Hungary, Japan, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Sweden and Switzerland attended the 4h FSG-Workshop held at BMW in Munich. FSG-Officials, industry experts and...

08. October 2008

FSG Workshop at BMW in Munich

Category: Academy

A workshop to support teams will be offered on 8th November 2008 by the Formula Student Germany at the BMW Research and Innovation Center (FIZ) in Munich. The speakers are experienced Formula Student participants and industrial...

08. October 2008

Tempus Fugit

Category: Pat´s Corner

Hello again. Well, Summer vacation is over, the leaves are changing colour and the European FS season is finished. A new academic year has started and teams should be starting to think about their next car. Stuttgart emerged as...

07. October 2008

Best Dynamometer Performance Award
powered by Bosch Engineering GmbH

Category: Competition

Again in 2008 Bosch Engineering GmbH sponsored the “Best dynamometer performance award” and covered the expense of having a chassis dyno at the competition site. All teams that passed technical inspection were able to compete for...

18. August 2008

Picture Gallery is online

Category: Competition, General

We engaged some photographers to save the impressions of FSG 2008 in pictures: Bernd Hanselmann, Frank Bramkamp, Ingo Reichmann, Kimmo Hirvonen, Bärbel Systermann, Klaus Bergmann, Johannes Rieke and Bastian Schäfer together took...

10. August 2008

Congratulations to the Technical University of Delft!

Category: Competition

This year's Formula Student Germany Champion 2008 is the Technical University of Delft! The team from the Netherlands put the Technical University of Braunschweig and the Technical University of Graz on second and third place....

10. August 2008

The last discipline is over...

Category: Competition

Again Endurance was the last discipline this year. After 10 hours overall race time, 36 teams arrived on the finishing line and successfully completed this year’s FSG. Now all teams impatiently await the announcement of the...

10. August 2008

Endurance has started

The last event of this year’s FSG, the Endurance, has just started. In this discipline, the teams proof acceleration, speed, handling, dynamics, fuel economy and reliability by competing against each other. The Endurance winner...

09. August 2008

The autocross - Bernd Schneider, Mike Rockenfeller and the students

Category: Competition

The autocross, the discipline which for the first time tests the dynamic skills of the race cars, took place in the afternoon. In advance Bernd Schneider, 5-time DTM overall winner for Mercedes-Benz, and Mike Rockenfeller,...

09. August 2008

Results of Skid Pad event are out now

More results have been published by now. To show the transverse acceleration of the car, they have to drive the shape of an eight in the Skid Pad discipline. The best results were made by Oxford Brookes University. Tonight, the...

09. August 2008

First winners at the dynamic disciplines

After finishing scrutineering and all static events, the first dynamic disciplines are held today. At first there is acceleration, followed by skidpad and autocross. 58 of 77 teams put their cars’ acceleration to the test....

09. August 2008

DTM-Drivers on the tracks of Formula Student

FSG presents a special highlight on Saturday. The DTM-drivers Bernd Schneider,  five times DTM champion with Mercedes-Benz, and Mike Rockenfeller have a closer look to the self-designed and built race cars of the student...

08. August 2008

Static Events have been completed

Category: Competition

Today, all teams have competed in the static disciplines Business Plan Presentation, Cost Analysis Event and Engineering Design Event and could present their theoretical developments from the last year.In the evening, the public...

07. August 2008

Finalists for the Most Innovative Use of Electronics Award published

Category: Competition

The finalists for the additional award "Most Innovative Use of Electronics" powered by Bosch Engineering GmbH have been announced. On venue the list with the finalists is displayed in the front windows of the FSG forum.

07. August 2008

FSG increases importance of fuel efficiency

Category: General

From 2009 onwards, the fuel consumption will be increased from a maximum of 50 points to a maximum of 100 points in the overall rating. As a result, it will then represent 10% of all achievable points. The overall distribution of...

07. August 2008

The first steps: Technical and Safety Inspection

Category: Competition

On Wednesday and Thursday the teams have to present their cars at the Technical and Safety Inspection. The cars are thoroughly examined in the Scrutineering whether they have been constructed accordingly to the strict rules....

06. August 2008

Finalists for Best Suspension and for Best Lightweight Concept Award published

Category: Competition

The finalists for two of the additional awards have been announced: for the Best Lightweight Concept Award powered by AUDI AG and for the Best Suspension Design Award powered by ZF Group, which will take place in the FSG Forum on...

06. August 2008

Formula Student Germany is back again!

Category: Competition

Today the Hockenheimring’s gates open yet again for the Formula Student Germany 2008. This year, teams from 19 nations participate to compete in static and dynamic disciplines within the coming days.Altogether 78 teams take up...

30. July 2008

On the fast lane with Brunel – FSG 2008

In just few days 77 race teams from all over the world will compete to win in the Formula Student Germany 2008. In exciting single disciplines it again means: screeching tires, smouldering heads and impressive technical...

18. July 2008

BMW Group Award for the Most Innovative Powertrain

Category: Competition

The engine is the heart and soul of every automobile. The BMW Group has demonstrated that with their powerful and simultaneously efficient engines, that they are industry leaders in this area. Show us that your innovative...

16. July 2008

ZF Best Suspension Design Award

Category: Competition

Awarded to the team that exhibits the best suspension system design and development including outstanding performance, manufacturing, and aesthetics. Teams must submit a summary of their suspension...

14. July 2008

Best dynamometer performance

Category: Competition

We at Bosch Engineering GmbH know about the complexity of designing a vehicle that meets emissions regulations and on the other hand still is powerful and “fun to drive”. To handle the complex measurement procedures required for...

14. July 2008

Most innovative use of electronics

Category: Competition

We at Bosch Engineering GmbH know about the needs of the automotive industry and engineering where there is a growing demand for graduates who are experienced in the technical principles of electrical engineering. For this reason...

09. July 2008

Audi Best Lightweight Concept Award

Category: Competition

There are no compromises when it comes to the finest sports car engineering. Technical precision and performance must be pushed to the limits – and beyond.

27. June 2008

Design the best-performing car with SolidWorks

Category: Industry

SolidWorks has been a proud partner of the Formula Student and Formula SAE competitions for many years, giving students meaningful real-world experience designing, building, testing, and competing with original designs in a team...

12. June 2008

DEKRA reviews security reports of the 78 teams

Category: Competition

Since 80 years DEKRA is working side by side with the automotive industries as a professional and neutral partner, especially in the field of vehicle scrutiny, expertise and valuation. As the technological partner of the Formula...

12. June 2008

Design Judging Stuff

Category: Pat´s Corner

Here it is, June already, with only one month to go until FSG. May saw the running of FSAE in Michigan and we must congratulate the winners there. Western Australia, Stuttgart and TU Munich stood on the podium, shutting out the...

09. June 2008

Style Event assesses optical design

Category: Competition

FSG is again offering the additional discipline Style Event. Prof. James Kelly, the Chair of Transportation Design at FH Pforzheim and Roberto Maronde (Daimler AG) will be judging the race cars according to designing...

04. June 2008

Programme magazine uploads for team and car information

Category: Competition

To inform participants, judges, sponsors and visitors about the dates and locations of proceeding disciplines or events during Formula Student Germany 2008, we will offer a programme magazine for free. In addition to the basic...

03. June 2008

On the Right Track With ZF

Category: Industry

Our 4,600 engineers worldwide are looking for reinforcement in the fields of electronics, electrical engineering, as well as mechanical and vehicle engineering. Engineers (m/f) with major in mechanical engineering,...

16. April 2008

Risk = Hs x Hp

Category: Pat´s Corner

As we enter a new season of Formula Student competition, it is probably a good idea to talk about safety. Yeah, I know you guys are invincible, can stop bullets with your teeth and are totally impervious to injury. Truth is,...

15. April 2008

Next YourDay @ BoschEngineering on May 30th, 2008. Apply now.

Category: Industry

Gain exciting insights into the Bosch Engineering GmbH on May 30th, 2008.

01. April 2008

April-fool joke ;-)

Category: Competition

Certainly we are not going to auction scrutineering slots! That was simply the Steering Committees’ April-fool joke 2008 – but with a serious reason. Scrutineering is an integral part of the event which cannot be loosened in its...

01. April 2008

Auction of Scrutineering Slots

Category: Competition

As a result of the scarce capacities and the tight time schedule, the Steering Committee has decided to auction off the first scrutineering slots for the event 2008.Our goal is to improve the preparations to the scrutineering and...

28. March 2008

Rules & Important Documents

Category: Competition

The first obstacle at the FSG event for most of the teams is the Scrutineering. Experienced scrutineers, who worked several years in Formula Student teams themselves, will support the DEKRA inspection engineers during the FSG...

21. March 2008

Happy Easter!

Category: General

We wish all teams, our sponsors and friends of Formula Student Germany Happy Easter and a happy egg hunt!

04. March 2008

Visa for FSG 2008

Category: Competition

Dear registered teams for FSG 2008, we are glad you registered for the event and are looking forward to meet you in Hockenheim. If you need an official invitation in order to get your visa please tell us. It takes a little...

28. February 2008

Pat's Column - February

Category: Pat´s Corner

Another month means another column, welcome back to Pat's Corner.I guess the most important that happened in the last month was the log jam that occurred when registration opened for FSG. The popularity of this event meant it was...

17. February 2008

Number of starting grids increased to 78

Category: General, Competition

After the unexpected number of applications for the Formula Student Germany 2008 we analysed all processes to identify the maximum number of possible teams. As result, the number of starting grids will be increased from 64 to 78,...

06. February 2008

Steering Committee reviews possibilities to increase starting grids

Category: General, Competition

We are all aware of the highly demanding work to be done in preparation of a Formula Student event. The dissapointment of the 25 teams, that did not get one of the 64 places in the Formula Student Germany (FSG) ist more than...

01. February 2008

All 64 places for FSG 2008 are booked

Category: Competition, General

Already 5 minutes and 38 seconds after opening regular registration all available places are booked. 35 german and 29 international teams have successfully registered for the 2008 Formula Student Germany Event. At the moment,...

23. January 2008

Registration to FSG 2008 starts on Friday 1st February

Category: Competition

From the 1st February 1300 CET registration to Formula Student Germany 2008, taking place on the Hockenheimring from 6th to 10th August, is open to all interested teams. In total 64 places are available. Please click here for all...

16. January 2008

Pat's Column - January

Category: Pat´s Corner

Firstly, welcome to 2008. My best wishes to all for a prosperous new year and I look forward to catching up with you all in August at Hockenheim.Seeing as I am currently on a short vacation, this months article will be a bit...

15. January 2008

Early Registration for international teams starts on Monday 21st January

Category: Competition

International teams have the possibility of early registration to FSG 2008 from Monday, 21st January, 1300 CET, until Wednesday, 30th January, 1300 CET. In total 20 early-registration places are available. As in the previous...

01. January 2008

Happy New Year!

Category: General

We wish all parties hereto Formula Student Germany a Happy New Year filled with joy, success and lots of lucky days in 2008.

23. December 2007

Merry Christmas!

Category: General

We wish all teams, our sponsors and friends of Formula Student Germany Merry Christmas and reflective holidays!

22. December 2007

Registration starts in less than 5 weeks

Category: General, Competition

The registration for the third Formula Student competition in Germany starts in less than five weeks. The event will take place, like last year, at the Hockenheimring from August 6th to 10th, 2008. To offer as many teams as...

17. December 2007

Chassis Dyno Results FSG 2007 Event

Category: Competition

During the 2007 FSG event we had a new award that was open to all teams that focused on engine development. Bosch Engineering GmbH sponsored the "Best dynamometer performance Award" and took over the expenses of having a chassis...

11. December 2007

ATZ MTZ Extra of Formula Student Germany 2007 published

Category: General
ATZ MTZ extra - November 2007

For the second time, the ATZ MTZ Extra magazine presents the Formula Student Germany event magazine. Working closely with teams and organisers, the ATZ MTZ editors created an exciting, professional and technically sophisticated...

16. November 2007

370 students attend FSG-Workshop in Stuttgart;
open discussion during "round table"

Category: General, Academy

At 10th of November, 370 students from 37 teams attended the 3rd FSG-Workshop held at the University of Stuttgart. Industry experts and experienced FS-students gave lectures on technical subjects such as cooling or tires as well...

12. November 2007

Pat's Column - November

Category: Pat´s Corner

Another month passes by and congratulations are again due to Stuttgart for their victory in Italy. This is a noteworthy achievement for a team in their second year. Three events in 2007 for two wins and a second at Formula...

31. October 2007

Formula Student Germany - Rules 2008

Category: Competition

Dear Teams, after having worked on our specific rules for the Formula Student Germany 2008 we are happy that we were able to publish the finalised version at our webpage. Please note these rules and please consider them...

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